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Winshark Casino - γενική συζήτηση (σελίδα 6)

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silver
RayMan
Τζούνιορ Μαθητευόμενος
πριν από 2 ημέρες

And from the same forum thread they discuss that casinos that uses these copied slots got the ability to control the game and put players in "deadzone" mode. I have experienced this on Winshark and also on FatRabbit casino very recently. The cainos do pay out winnings but they are not 100% legit. Notice all the disconnects on PlayNGo, thats a sign.

Also lately I have seen casinos that doesnt even show the rtp% at all on PlayNGo. I thought this was a new thing from the provider but it might be that they use copied slots and can manipulate the text/graphics? Maybe even show a false rtp%?

admin
Radka
Social Media & Community Specialist
RayMan
πριν από 2 ημέρες

Well the license doesnt include any authority checking these things. Sadly no. Thats not how a license works.

And casinos with copied slots is a thing, I think Winshark might be one of them. Look out for older graphics in the game, a number in the webadress and sudden stops and error/loading in the game. This is taken from another forum and 100% accurate :

"Be really careful many sites don't even have licenses and listen to Donner123, also check the browser's inspector, the pages have Game Launcher domains and the games are not delivered from e.g. Play n Go etc. The games are copied in old versions, compare with Unibet that runs the latest versions of the games."


This is the reality. What can we do about it? Why doesnt the slot providers care?


πριν από 2 ημέρες

I believe that "slot providers don't care" as you said, because:

1) Their products - the games are licensed under their own-game providers earned license that esure certificate confirming the RNG bases. It is quite oversimplified but still quite handy.

2) The licensing authorities issuing licenses to casinos only check whether the games are certificated upon the casino license issuing process. The rest is out of their reach.

3) To avoid local gambling restrictions, some game providers change the game's appearance, features, or look to make the same product more popular for certain markets/regions. Or they mask where the game is loading from...

No wonder many players consider these tactics to be a sigh of fake/manipulated games. But I also understand game providers would not want to openly discuss avoiding restrictions or altering graphics for most successful games. Still, I would love to have at least one official game provide representative to answer your very good questions.

admin
Radka
Social Media & Community Specialist
RayMan
πριν από 2 ημέρες

Yes more than one time casino staff admitted that that a personal rtp is used. As I wrote, this is programmed from the provider. Thats why you cant win big hits after some nice wins. You will lose until you are "even" with the game. I lost 600 euro one time many years ago and they way I won back exactly 600 euro (single win hit) on the same slots but in a different casino later that night. Many times they work like that. A license does absolutley nothing, since they use third party products and the can claim everything is according to RNG by that. Its a big scam.



πριν από 2 ημέρες

I think you refer to the preset RTP values, which scale, and the casino may choose the concrete RTP value when procuring the game from the game provider. This is quite a common practice and the reason why we always say the player should be able to see the current RTP value available to him for each game.

Please do not mistake this for the most widely held player belief, which is that the casino somehow changed RTP specifically to lower players' chances of winning. As long as each game has an RTP below 100% and players continue to play in hopes of winning, this is totally beyond the realm of rational discussion. The mathematical advantage is always on the casino side, so they actually just need you to stay; you will lose eventually. Furthermore, despite being the least favorable of all casino games, the majority of players continue to play slots.

Under such circumstances, casinos only need players to participate, and players are more than willing to play the most disadvantageous type of games—the slots.

Have you ever thought about this before?

Of course, from time to time some scammy casinos simply chose the shortcut to profit and used some sort of fake games.

Actually, though, I would not waste time on phony games if I wanted to start defrauding players; instead, I would entice them with incredible bonuses and an unclear deposit requirement to authorize pending withdrawals. Once I had enough, I would simply close the site. Based on my personal experiences, I believe that this is an easier and, of course, the most unethical method of scamming casino players for money. No need to bother with "altered RTP"...



admin
Radka
Social Media & Community Specialist
RayMan
πριν από 2 ημέρες

And from the same forum thread they discuss that casinos that uses these copied slots got the ability to control the game and put players in "deadzone" mode. I have experienced this on Winshark and also on FatRabbit casino very recently. The cainos do pay out winnings but they are not 100% legit. Notice all the disconnects on PlayNGo, thats a sign.

Also lately I have seen casinos that doesnt even show the rtp% at all on PlayNGo. I thought this was a new thing from the provider but it might be that they use copied slots and can manipulate the text/graphics? Maybe even show a false rtp%?

πριν από 2 ημέρες

I would certainly ask the casino for an explanation regarding the missing RTP values. Though, as I said, there are far too many different explanations as the one you keep suggesting 🙂.

silver
RayMan
Τζούνιορ Μαθητευόμενος
Radka
πριν από 2 ημέρες

I believe that "slot providers don't care" as you said, because:

1) Their products - the games are licensed under their own-game providers earned license that esure certificate confirming the RNG bases. It is quite oversimplified but still quite handy.

2) The licensing authorities issuing licenses to casinos only check whether the games are certificated upon the casino license issuing process. The rest is out of their reach.

3) To avoid local gambling restrictions, some game providers change the game's appearance, features, or look to make the same product more popular for certain markets/regions. Or they mask where the game is loading from...

No wonder many players consider these tactics to be a sigh of fake/manipulated games. But I also understand game providers would not want to openly discuss avoiding restrictions or altering graphics for most successful games. Still, I would love to have at least one official game provide representative to answer your very good questions.

πριν από 2 ημέρες

The slots themselves are not licensed until a licensed casino uses them. As it is today the slots are probably used by these "fake" casinos without knowledge from the slot providers. Its just copied/mirrored slots. I dont know how it works but I think the reason that PlayNGo dont care is because they are doing billions and dont need to. They cant even be reached at their offices by phone.


Its not that they alter the graphics or to avoid restrictions. Many of these even have IP blocked providers. They use old versions of the slots as they dont pay for it to PlayNGo.


I agree there should be a way to communicate with the providers, but since I talked to one of the big shots at PlayNGo I can tell you that they dont care if they scam people, its a shady business and a grey zone industry. And they make extreme profit every year.

silver
RayMan
Τζούνιορ Μαθητευόμενος
Radka
πριν από 2 ημέρες

I would certainly ask the casino for an explanation regarding the missing RTP values. Though, as I said, there are far too many different explanations as the one you keep suggesting 🙂.

πριν από 2 ημέρες

The casino in most cases consists of a outsourced support that cant answer nothing about the rtp or the slots. Its all lined up perfectly. "Thats how they are delivered from the provider, the casino cant manipulate the games in any way."


Its a very big problem with fake casinos for the banks, at least here. My bank and Mastercard just limited the transfers to Revolut because of this. And they try to cut of any payments for non EU licensed casinos. For a couple years now I had to use Revolut to even deposit to these casinos.


And as I have looked up several of the people behind these casinos, many are well known to be linked to organized crime. Still they even had a MGA license in one case..Rade Kotur with son being one of them.

admin
Radka
Social Media & Community Specialist
RayMan
πριν από 2 ημέρες

The slots themselves are not licensed until a licensed casino uses them. As it is today the slots are probably used by these "fake" casinos without knowledge from the slot providers. Its just copied/mirrored slots. I dont know how it works but I think the reason that PlayNGo dont care is because they are doing billions and dont need to. They cant even be reached at their offices by phone.


Its not that they alter the graphics or to avoid restrictions. Many of these even have IP blocked providers. They use old versions of the slots as they dont pay for it to PlayNGo.


I agree there should be a way to communicate with the providers, but since I talked to one of the big shots at PlayNGo I can tell you that they dont care if they scam people, its a shady business and a grey zone industry. And they make extreme profit every year.

χθες

Hi, let's continue.

"The slots themselves are not licensed until a licensed casino uses them."

I have different information, but feel free to share some official source supporting yours. Perhaps there has been some new development in the field of licensing.

"Its just copied/mirrored slots. I dont know how it works but I think the reason that PlayNGo dont care is because they are doing billions and dont need to. They cant even be reached at their offices by phone."

My observations of the percentage of players who say the slots are manipulated, faked, or altered lead me to conclude that the game providers are simply understaffed to handle all of these issues. Consider the number of players who approach the game provider after losing money on their slots and insist that the games must have been rigged in some way. The distinction between the players' viewpoint and a legitimate worry backed up by comprehensive gaming history or video caps, for example, should be clear.

"Its not that they alter the graphics or to avoid restrictions. Many of these even have IP blocked providers. They use old versions of the slots as they dont pay for it to PlayNGo."

Despite the rules, some providers take specific actions to ensure that their products are available to everyone, as I mentioned.

"I agree there should be a way to communicate with the providers, but since I talked to one of the big shots at PlayNGo I can tell you that they dont care if they scam people, its a shady business and a grey zone industry. And they make extreme profit every year."

I would be interested in seeing the communication with this provider. If possible, could you take a screenshot of the official response you received? That would be awesome!

silver
RayMan
Τζούνιορ Μαθητευόμενος
Radka
χθες

Hi, let's continue.

"The slots themselves are not licensed until a licensed casino uses them."

I have different information, but feel free to share some official source supporting yours. Perhaps there has been some new development in the field of licensing.

"Its just copied/mirrored slots. I dont know how it works but I think the reason that PlayNGo dont care is because they are doing billions and dont need to. They cant even be reached at their offices by phone."

My observations of the percentage of players who say the slots are manipulated, faked, or altered lead me to conclude that the game providers are simply understaffed to handle all of these issues. Consider the number of players who approach the game provider after losing money on their slots and insist that the games must have been rigged in some way. The distinction between the players' viewpoint and a legitimate worry backed up by comprehensive gaming history or video caps, for example, should be clear.

"Its not that they alter the graphics or to avoid restrictions. Many of these even have IP blocked providers. They use old versions of the slots as they dont pay for it to PlayNGo."

Despite the rules, some providers take specific actions to ensure that their products are available to everyone, as I mentioned.

"I agree there should be a way to communicate with the providers, but since I talked to one of the big shots at PlayNGo I can tell you that they dont care if they scam people, its a shady business and a grey zone industry. And they make extreme profit every year."

I would be interested in seeing the communication with this provider. If possible, could you take a screenshot of the official response you received? That would be awesome!

χθες

I dont have any screenshot. This was a phone call I made after some googling and found some phone numbers registered on PlayNGo or Tigrim 1 AB, the company behind PlayNGo. They are based on Storgatan 82a in Jönköping, Sweden.

I tried around 8 numbers and only one answer. I talked to him around 10 minutes, mostly about rtp% and how it can differ from casino to casino when its the same slot. I live in Sweden and they are based here so maybe easier for me to find this than for others.

So no official response, they work in silence. Their head office is also low key. This was probably 2 years ago.

admin
Radka
RayMan
Social Media & Community Specialist
RayMan
πριν από 23 ώρες

Oh, I see now.

If I may guess these contacts led to the central desk, assistants, marketing, or PR department, am I close?

I mean, as far as I can say, getting in touch with someone involved enough to be able to address concrete questions is a standalone quest. Thank you very much for helping me to get to the bottom of your direct experience.

The way I see it, the result remains the same though. Until we get someone who would be able to explain the most usual market practices and the game licensing process at least. 🙁

Not to mention whether the games are periodically reviewed by any authority to ensure their authenticity.



silver
RayMan
Τζούνιορ Μαθητευόμενος
Radka
πριν από 23 ώρες

Oh, I see now.

If I may guess these contacts led to the central desk, assistants, marketing, or PR department, am I close?

I mean, as far as I can say, getting in touch with someone involved enough to be able to address concrete questions is a standalone quest. Thank you very much for helping me to get to the bottom of your direct experience.

The way I see it, the result remains the same though. Until we get someone who would be able to explain the most usual market practices and the game licensing process at least. 🙁

Not to mention whether the games are periodically reviewed by any authority to ensure their authenticity.



πριν από 14 ώρες

No this was a guy with a official role at Playngo. Not some office staff or central desk. No offical phone number and he was irritated that I managed to get a hold of him, he asked me more than one time who I was and why I called. I told him I was from the media and that we wanted a interview. He refused that and I told him we will come knock on their office doors to do a story. That was it.

I dont think the slots are reviewed periodically, they trust the RNG that is approved and legal.


I remember about 10 years ago I didnt know that the rtp% could differ on the same slot. I lost 400 euro on slots that I after found out they had a rtp% of 88%. I thought the rtp was 96%. For a player of a slot 88% vs 96% is a extreme difference in how the slot behaves. I can say it was mostly dead spins all 400 euro. Still this is fully legal to do on all gambling licenses.


Imagine a legit casino that doesnt lower rtp and pay out instantly. I dont think it exists at all today. Sad because it should be the absolut minimum for a casino to have that before they go online with their product. Anything else is a scam against the player.

admin
Radka
RayMan
Social Media & Community Specialist
RayMan
πριν από 1 ώρα

Really, you did get to this guy?

Well, wow!

Despite that, I still think the current situation with "legitimate" slots and altered RTP is more complicated, and because of that, I'm a bit hesitant to agree with the last paragraph

I'd really love to say you are a unique source of interesting points in this very unclear field of expertise.

On the other hand, I too tend to think that games are not generally reviewed and the system works on the main principle that the RNG is fair enough, so once the product is licensed, it is all good enough.


Different RTP for the same slot offered in different casinos is one of the signs I'm also very sensitive to. If nothing else, such practices, at least in my opinion, lower the general trust in this industry.

I would love to believe that 88% RTP is only a bad guess, because such a low value is pretty close to deceiving, I'd say.


Our team has a debate about what the situation is when it comes to casino games and their uthenticity, licensing, control, and so on. The outcome was that we would all truly need someone from inside to help us understand the basics so we can, for instance, let go of our own assumptions...

Well, not an easy topic indeed.

silver
RayMan
Τζούνιορ Μαθητευόμενος
πριν από 22 λεπτά

Yeah I would say that 88% rtp is close to fraud. This is mainly the providers "fault". They could lock the rtp, I think some providers do? Pragmatic Play usually have a normal rtp% at these scam casinos, but PlayNGo is always lowered. Even 91% rtp some players call "great rtp" here on the forum.


Would be cool if you guys tried to contact these providers? Maybe they are more willing to talk if its not a player who has lost money.

And I agree what you wrote earlier, most critique comes from players who have lost money and are upset, that makes it hard to adress serious critique to these slot providers.



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