Pokies2Go Casino - Τα κέρδη από το παιχνίδι μπόνους ακυρώθηκαν.

this casino has completely confiscated my bonus winnings

the following reason exists:

Since you claimed our dragon bonus (%, matching bonus was included in the bonus mentioned), after checking your gameplay it was found that you tried to use our bonus with unauthorized gameplay by changing the game (s) to low volatility have until the completion of the bonus wagering requirements, shortly after a big win in a high volatility game, to complete the wager.

as far as I can remember, at the beginning of the bonus black hawk deluxe (wazdan) I played for 5 euros / spin there was a good win (around 1000 euros) and then I got twin jokers at 2 euros / spin (stakelogic)

played up to the finished implementation of the wager and was able to pay 641 euros.

I would classify black hawk deluxe and twin joker on mid variance (600x max win)

So I didn't switch from high to low variance, which I am accused of, but started with mid variance and played it to the end

only the bet value was changed by me from 5 euros at black hawk deluxe to 2 euros at twin joker.

But in my opinion that is completely ok and acceptable. I have already played it in many other casinos where I also used bonuses and there were never any problems

so i can't understand the casino's decision to withhold my winnings.

I took advantage of the following bonus:

80 euro deposit + 20 percent bonus + 100 free spins wager free (0.20bet value)

wager x15 deposit + bonus

since the fs wager were free, i only received a bonus of 20 percent.

difficult to abuse such a bonus with just 20 percent bonus if you ask me

Unfortunately, the casino was looking for another reason not to pay out.

dieses casino hat meine bonusgewinne komplett beschlagnahmt

folgende begründung liegt vor:

Da Sie unseren Drachenbonus beansprucht haben (%, Matching Bonus war im genannten Bonus enthalten), wurde nach Überprüfung Ihres Gameplays festgestellt, dass Sie versucht haben, unseren Bonus mit nicht zugelassenem Gameplay zu nutzen, indem Sie das Spiel / die Spiele auf niedrige Volatilität umgestellt haben bis zum Abschluss der Bonus-Wettanforderungen, kurz nach einem großen Gewinn in einem Spiel mit hoher Volatilität, um den Einsatz abzuschließen.

soweit ich mich erinnern kann habe ich am anfang des bonusses black hawk deluxe (wazdan) auf 5 euro/spin gespielt es kam ein guter gewinn (um die 1000 euro) und ich habe dann twin joker auf 2euro/spin (stakelogic)

bis zur fertigen umsetzung des wagers gespielt und konnte 641 euro zur auszahlung bringen.

ich würde black hawk deluxe als auch twin joker auf mid variance einstufen (600x max win)

ich habe also nicht von high auf low variance gewechselt was mir vorgeworfen wird sondern habe mit mid variance angefangen und auch zuende gespielt

lediglich der bet wert wurde von mir verändert von 5 euro bei black hawk deluxe auf 2 euro bei twin joker.

das ist aber meiner meinung nach völlig ok und akzeptabel das habe ich so schon in vielen anderen casinos so gespielt wo ich auch bonusse genutzt habe und es gab nie probleme

ich kann also die entscheidung des casinos meine gewinne einzubehalten nicht nachvollziehen.

folgenden bonus habe ich in anspruch genommen:

80 euro einzahlung+20 protzent bonus+100 freispiele wager free(0.20bet value)

wager x15 einzahlung+bonus

da die fs wager frei waren hatte ich also gerade einmal nur 20 protzent bonus erhalten.

schwierig so ein bonus zu abusen bei gerade einmal 20 protzent bonus wenn sie mich fragen

das casino hat leider wieder ein grund gesucht micht nicht auszuzahlen.

Dear Jörg,

Thank you very much for submitting your complaint and forwarding all the relevant communication. I checked the T&Cs (https://www.pokies2go.com/en/static-texts/terms-and-conditions), and I found the term the casino is referring to:

„9.8. If a player or a group of players are abusing casino bonuses Pokies2go has the right to confiscate any wins thereof and to close the players account(s). Abusive behaviour towards bonuses and/or bonus abuse means:

1.    i) A Player places bets and/or wagers amounting to the maximum allowed per bonus terms to raise the variance in order increase the balance

2.    ii) Player lowers the bet and/or wager size after a big win and changes the game to one with a lower volatility"

I would like to emphasize, that according to our Fair Gambling Codex, https://casino.guru/fair-gambling-codex-for-casinos#betting-patterns, we consider cases in which casinos use the 'betting patterns' rule to confiscate player's winnings to be unfair because players should be allowed to play the way they prefer.

Would you be so kind and forward me your game history if possible? Additionally, if there is any other relevant communication between you and the casino (except the attached screenshots), please forward it to kristina.s@casino.guru.

Thank you very much in advance for your reply.

Best regards,

Kristina

I received the following message from the casino today:

Dear Jörg,

This is to inform you that our Fraud and Finance department will check your case once again, please bear with us.

Kind regards,

pokies2go Finance Department.

they want to investigate the case again

ich habe folgende nachrich vom casino erhalten heute:

Dear Jörg,

This is to inform you that our Fraud and Finance department will check your case once again, please bear with us.

Kind regards,

pokies2go Finance Department.

man will den fall nochmal untersuchen

I asked the casino to send me the bet history for this dragon bonus to my email because I can no longer understand which bets belong to which bonuses

ich habe das casino gebeten mir die bet history für diesen dragon bonus an meine mail zu senden da ich nicht mehr nachvollziehen kann weche einsätze zu welchen bonus gehören

Thank you for the update Fowi30, please forward me the game history when you receive it. Also, please let us know if the casino finishes the investigation in the meantime and the outcome of it. Thank you very much.

i have sent an email with the chat history of the casino and me + bet history of the bonus to kristina.s@casino.guru

please let me know if you have received this email, if not then please write me an email to which I can answer.

ich habe eine mail mit dem chatverlauf des casinos und mir + bet history des bonusses an kristina.s@casino.guru gesendet

bitte teilen sie mir mit ob sie diese mail erhalten haben falls nicht dann schreiben mir bitte eine mail auf die ich antworten kann.

das casino weigert sich den gewinn auszuzahlen nach dem der fall nochmal überprüft wurde

das habe ich erhalten:

Regarding disputed winnings of 641.13€ you will find the requested game log attached. We have checked with the Wazdan game provider regarding the volatility of your game session ( Wazdan offers 3 volatility levels and they have confirmed you were playing on the highest volatility level - Black Hawk Deluxe game). Right after the win, you have changed bet and volatility level to a lower one (Twin Joker). The game log will confirm our statement and it is a direct breach of the terms and conditions you have agreed upon signing up:

9.8. If a player or a group of players abuses casino bonuses, Pokies2go has the right to confiscate winnings from them and to close the player accounts. Abusive behavior towards bonuses and / or bonus abuse means:

1. i) A player places bets and / or stakes in the amount of the maximum allowable bonus per bonus condition in order to increase the variance and increase the balance

2. ii) The player lowers the stake and / or stake size after a large win and changes the game to a game with less volatility. "

Also please note that as per T&C: 9.14. Bonuses offered by pokies2go.com are solely intended for genuine recreation of players only. Bonus/Promotional abuse will not be tolerated. Player betting patterns and activity are constantly monitored and in case of bonus abuse, pokies2go.com

the casino claims:

Immediately after winning, you changed the stake and volatility level to a lower level (twin joker).

the volatility level cannot be set with twin joker as with black hawk deluxe because it is a different provider (stakelogic)

the claim that I changed the volatility level is not true at all and is simply wrong

das casino behauptet:

Unmittelbar nach dem Gewinn haben Sie die Einsatz- und Volatilitätsstufe auf eine niedrigere Stufe geändert (Twin Joker).

die volatilätsstufe lässt bei twin joker nicht einstellen wie bei black hawk deluxe da es sich um einen anderen provider handelt (stakelogic)

die behauptung das ich das volatilitätslevel geändert habe stimmt also gar nicht und ist schlichtweg falsch

Thank you very much fowi30 for your reply. I will now transfer your complaint to my colleague Jozef who will be at your assistance. I wish you the best of luck and hope to see your problem being resolved to your satisfaction soon.

So you have received my mail with the history of the bonus and chat history with the casino?

Sie haben also meine Mail mit Spielverlauf des bonusses und Chatverlauf mit dem Casino erhalten?

Dear fowi30.

I absolutely appreciate that you shared your experiences with the Casino Guru team. We will now try to get in touch with the casino.

P.S. I will double-check the info about the bonus history but you can forward them also to my email address jozef.k@casino.guru.

apparently the casino has no interest in clarifying the case

offenbar hat das casino keinerlei interesse den fall zu klären

We would like to ask the Pokies2Go Casino to reply to this complaint. We are extending the timer by 7 days. If the casino fails to respond in the set time frame, we will close the complaint as ‘unresolved’.

Dear Jörg,

we have checked your case once again. Let us address it step by step and you will find the requested game logs attached.

1. Your account came to our attention after you have claimed our limited edition "Bear" bonus 20 times in a row without any intention of playing your funds, only withdrawing winnings from free spins. As per terms and conditions, the deposit needs to be wagered at least twice. Even we do have full right to confiscate any winnings from bonus abuse, we notified you about the rules and after you have wagered the needed amount, all your winnings were paid (2020.42 EUR altogether). Any story about pokies2go not paying out or seeking reasons not to pay out is false as we even paid you out after the first bonus abuse attempt.

2.Regarding disputed winnings of 641.13€ you will find the requested game log attached. We have checked with the Wazdan game provider regarding the volatility of your game session ( Wazdan offers 3 volatility levels and they have confirmed you were playing on the highest volatility level - Black Hawk Deluxe game). Right after the win, you have changed bet and volatility level to a lower one (Twin Joker). The game log will confirm our statement and it is a direct breach of the terms and conditions you have agreed upon signing up:

9.8. If a player or a group of players abuses casino bonuses, Pokies2go has the right to confiscate winnings from them and to close the player accounts. Abusive behavior towards bonuses and / or bonus abuse means:

1. i) A player places bets and / or stakes in the amount of the maximum allowable bonus per bonus condition in order to increase the variance and increase the balance

2. ii) The player lowers the stake and / or stake size after a large win and changes the game to a game with less volatility. "

Also please note that as per T&C: 9.14. Bonuses offered by pokies2go.com are solely intended for genuine recreation of players only. Bonus/Promotional abuse will not be tolerated. Player betting patterns and activity are constantly monitored and in case of bonus abuse, pokies2go.com reserves the right at its sole and exclusive discretion to cancel, suspend or terminate any player account found guilty of bonus/promotional abuse as well as void/revoke any pending gaming activity and refund the original deposit, or in cases of serious and intentional abuses such decision being made on sole and exclusive discretion of Pokies2go.com to confiscate that deposit and all winnings made from it. pokies2go.com can also decide at its own discretion to ban any player from participating in pokies2go.com promotions for a definite or indefinite period of time as decided by pokies2go.com management.

As you clearly broke terms and conditions, we consider this case to be closed. Please note we have 0 tolerance for bonus abusers who represent a direct threat to our casino and all legitimate players. If the Casino Guru dispute team has any more questions, we will gladly answer, but the decision is final.

PS - disputed deposit starts at 21.02.2021 08:07:19 our system time (CSV attached with full data alongside screenshot for easier understanding of data provided). Full game log was sent to the player and to kristina.s@casino.guru . Let us know if you need it delivered anywhere else.

Kind regards,

pokies2go Finance Department

to point 1

I have converted my no deposit ultimately 2x and paid the free spielewaren wager free.

the bonus was unlimited and could be used as often as you like

i followed all the rules. Paying in twice and paid out fs were wager free, what i do with them is up to me.

where is the bonus abuse i didn't violate anything and stuck to the bonus rules

to point 2

I quote:

Immediately after winning, you changed the stake and volatility level to a lower level (twin joker). The match record confirms our statement and represents a direct violation of the conditions that you agreed upon when you registered:

this statement is wrong because twin joker is a different provider (stakelogic) and the variance cannot be set there and has at least the same variance as black hawk deluxe. both slots have a max profit of 600x

Your statement that I switched from high to low variance is completely wrong.

I would like to point out once again that it was only a 20 percent bonus (free spins were wager free) with which a bonus abuse is almost impossible because there is significantly more real money in the deposit than the bonus in my case it was 80 euros real money and a bonus of just 16 euros.

zu punkt 1

ich habe meine einzahlung letztendlich 2x umgesetzt und ausgezahlt die freispiele waren wager free.

der bonus hatte keine limitierung und konnte beliebig oft genutzt werden

ich habe mich an alle regeln gehalten einzahlung 2x umgesetzt und ausgezahlt fs waren wager free,was ich damit mache bleibt mir überlassen.

wo ist der bonus abuse ich habe gegen nix verstossen und mich an den bonusregeln gehalten

zu punkt 2

ich zitiere:

Unmittelbar nach dem Gewinn haben Sie die Einsatz- und Volatilitätsstufe auf eine niedrigere Stufe geändert (Twin Joker). Das Spielprotokoll bestätigt unsere Aussage und stellt einen direkten Verstoß gegen die Bedingungen dar, die Sie bei der Anmeldung vereinbart haben:

diese aussage ist falsch da twin joker ein anderer provider ist (stakelogic) und sich dort die varianz nicht einstellen lässt und mindestens dieselbe varianz hat wie black hawk deluxe.beide slots haben ein max gewinn von 600x

ihre aussage das ich von high auf low variance gewechselt bin ist damit komplett falsch.

ich möchte noch einmal ausdrücklich darauf hinweisen das es nur ein 20 protzent bonus war (freispiele waren wager free) mit dem ein bonus abuse fast so gut wie unmöglich ist da in der einzahlung doch deutlich mehr echtgeld steckt als bonus in meinen fall waren es 80 euro echtgeld und gerade einmal 16 euro bonus.

Dear Pokies2go Casino team and Fowi30.

In Casino.Guru, we believe that some industry standards should be set higher. This is one of the reasons why we published our fair gambling codex. It summarizes our opinions about what is fair and we're judging each complaint accordingly (link below).

https://casino.guru/fair-gambling-codex-for-casinos

There is a whole section about bonus hunting. By bonus hunting, we mean using mathematical knowledge to find strategies with long term positive expectation. Usually, it means placing high volatility bets, so player either loose money very quickly or win a bigger amount and then complete wagering.

We believe that players should be allowed to play any strategy they want. As long as they don't mess with outcome probability (for example tracking live roulette wheel with an electronic device) or intentionally mess with wagering (for example delaying bonus rounds get by playing with bonus money to the time when the player plays with real money), it shouldn't be base for not paying winnings.

We also believe that it's OK if player goes to the casino with intention of winning money (in fact most players do). And it's not the task for the casino to analyze player's intentions.

Another problem with banning certain strategies is that they aren't perfectly defined and there is lots of subjectivity in interpretation. Therefore we believe casinos should defend against bonus hunters by setting reasonable bonus terms, like max bet, wagering requirements, wagering contribution etc. If this is set properly bonus should be very hard (if not impossible) to abuse for some decent amount.

And if the casino finds out that the player is using a play style they don't like, the right thing to do is ban him from future playing, but pay the whole balance. This could be applied to this case after the player took several free bonuses in the row. But this didn't happen and the player received the deposit bonus and played without a chance to win. In this case, he should be able to play it as he wants, as long as he doesn't break bonus condition like max bet (term about high and low variance switch is subjective, but more importantly unfair according to us and shouldn't be used). 

For all these reasons above, we are forced to close this complaint in favour of the player with classification "against fair gambling codex"

If you want to change your position you can reopen this complaint at any time.

Best regards, Jozef

Casino.Guru

We’ve reopened this complaint as per the casino's request. We would like to give this case one more chance to get resolved and help both involved parties to reach to a satisfactory conclusion.

Dear Fowi30.

The Pokies2Go Casino team has informed us that this case was resolved. Please, could you confirm their statement?

Please, be aware that in case you fail to provide the required information in the given time frame, we will consider the case got resolved.

that's right my winnings have been paid out

das ist richtig mein gewinn wurde ausgezahlt

Dear fowi30,

I am glad to hear that your issue got resolved. Thank you for using the Casino Guru complaint resolution centre. We will now mark it as 'resolved' in our system. 

Best regards, Jozef